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greetings citizens and welcome to

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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unknown

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[Music]

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i'm jason mcclellan i'm here with shane

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heard today thanks for hanging out with

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us

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shane recently released his debut book

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titled unidentified aerial phenomena a

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beginner's guide to researching ufos

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so today shane's going to spend some

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time telling us about his book

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but before we get to the book shane i'd

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love to talk with you for a bit

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just about ufo investigations in general

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and also a bit

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of your personal history as well cool

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yeah that sounds great

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all right so before you jumped into

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actual

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investigation when did you start

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researching the ufo topic

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well i would say you know i always had

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an interest even from

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childhood but it was not very strong

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just you know kind of

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in the back of my mind and then as i i

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grew

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you know had a family and a career and

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starting all that just didn't really

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have

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the time to pay attention but once my

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daughter grew

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and i had my career under control he had

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a little time to

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you know look into things that

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interested me and and i think the thing

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that really

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popped that interest off was the phoenix

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lights incident

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here in arizona i was a resident you

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know i've lived here 40 years so i was

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here during that time and

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even though i didn't see it uh that

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evening

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you know the you know much ado about

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about that case occurred in the media

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right

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and you know it happened over a long

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period of time

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for months and months and months and so

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even if you were just

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uh not even a casual uh interest in

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in ufos it was still in in the nightly

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news and i mean it got a lot of

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the attention here so yeah that did grab

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my attention and

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and i thought you know there there is

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really something to this and we need to

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look into

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more fully and that's kind of where it

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started for me and then you know about

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that time you had

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of course x-files was going on and then

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other

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ufo tv programs began like

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ufo files and so i would watch that

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stuff but

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um it wasn't until about 2010 where i

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really got into it with earnest and

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that was really the result of reading

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leslie kane's book

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ufos generals pilots and public

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officials go on the record

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and i followed that up with richard

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dolan's two volume set of

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ufos in the national security state and

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once i did that

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i i was pretty much convinced that there

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was a reality to this and

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that i'd like to continue it further and

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eventually after studying

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you know reading every book and you know

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movie

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and documentary and everything i could

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get my hands on for a couple years

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i i kind of felt like well now what i do

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with this knowledge

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and and um i look for some kind of

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opportunity to really engage and do more

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than just

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consume you know information and

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that's when uh mufon really got on my

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radar

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and in 2015 i i did join mufon

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and then in 2017 i became an

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investigator

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and then um earlier this year i i became

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an assistant director of arizona

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move funds so it's kind of been my path

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and my journey

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and i'm super enjoying it it's just so

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much fun

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so stepping back after the phoenix

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lights

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and decided to start researching the

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topic

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do you remember that process and and

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what you actually did

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to you know look actively look into the

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topic like how did you come across

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leslie kane's book for example like were

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you were you searching

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on the internet what were you doing to

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to figure out you know how to get this

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information or where to get this

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information

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yeah great point you know the the i mean

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the internet

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internet was you know certainly well

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along at that time

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and you know um but i don't think

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facebook was really much of the deal

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then but

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uh it wasn't what i actually yeah yeah

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so it um the first book i

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saw and i was literally just walking

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through

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uh barnes noble and i saw the book

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um on roswell from um corso and burns

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the day after roswell i think it's what

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it was called and

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um you know i'd heard of her odds as

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well kind of what it was and i thought

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well you know that's interesting maybe

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i'll look into that start there

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and that's how i got going but when i

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read that book i was

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i was kind of disappointed i i you know

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i just felt like

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you know some of it you know seemed

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plausible but some of it didn't

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and i kind of got discouraged and was

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thinking well i hope

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you know i'm not wasting my time here

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and then that's when the second book i

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found actually was leslie so

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uh that kind of renewed my confidence

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but yeah it was tough back then there

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was no

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i didn't really know anybody in the

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topic there was no connecting not like

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on facebook that kind of thing

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it was really just on my own and and

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frankly

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you know that process was difficult

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and it was random and it i was taking

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shots in the dark and so

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you know some stuff i i was just told

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you know nonsense and then other stuff

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was you know pretty factual and then

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some of it

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you know was really fascinating to me

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you know very scientific and

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and you know some really um you know

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valid information you could just kind of

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see

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it almost like you know spread out

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before me it was on the right hand you

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had

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wheat like good information and then on

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the left you know

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was chaff-like bad information and it

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took a while to go through the process

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to kind of

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how to differentiate between the two but

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you know eventually i got there but it

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was a bit of a struggle and i feel bad

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for people

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trying to jump in on this even now

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because there's just so much to wade

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through

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and you just don't even know where to

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start and what's relevant and what's

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nonsense you know so

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that that was kind of my journey or how

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i got going

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so as you were on your journey and you

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decided to

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you know take it further um

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what was it about ufo investigations

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specifically

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that appealed to you yeah that that is

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um that is the thing that appeals to me

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i

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people have

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for me it was more the nuts and bolts

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side it's like what is that machine

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in the air that is unexplained i gotta

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find out what that is you know

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that that certainly is what what had

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drove me to to look into it and then

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again having had the experience of

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consuming all this information and

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knowledge

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but nowhere to to use it or apply it was

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very frustrating to me and that's why i

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tended to gravitate toward the

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investigation side because

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here you can do something about it you

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know

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and maybe help move this whole thing

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forward so that's what attracted me most

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and

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you know the investigative side

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where you're applying logic and reason

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and deduction

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and all of those things he said it's not

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just

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you know belief it's it's action and

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it's you know evidence and it's proof

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and

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i don't know that just appeals to me

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more yeah and here we are

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in 2020 so you've got many years now

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of ufo investigation under your belt

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but again it's 20 20. and we've talked

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about this before on this show

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but now that we're a couple more months

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into it

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what does the ufo investigation

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landscape

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look like during coped yeah that's

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that's a rough one because it has

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limited our ability to go

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investigate in person which you know as

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a mufon

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investigator you do the majority of your

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work on the computer and research that

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way

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however there is absolutely a percentage

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of the time

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that you go meet with people you go on

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site in those locations

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you know i've had had um cases where you

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know we brought out our

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our you know geiger counters and our

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you know male meters and you know uh

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you know a sextant and just you know i

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mean there

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are some really neat things that you can

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apply to a case but you have to be there

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and present

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and of course the the seriousness of the

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case dictates whether you do that but

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even to interview someone you know to do

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so over the phone is fine or skype is

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fine but

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definitely in person you there's so much

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more to communication than

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than the words we utter right and so um

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it is

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better if you can do that in person and

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so a covid

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you know i've had a couple cases where

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boy i really wanted to go out there

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and meet with the people and talk to

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them and stuff where

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we did it just wasn't safe to do so not

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for them not for myself

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and you know unfortunately that's

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the world we're living in right now but

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you know it's temporary we're going to

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get through this

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get around it and we'll be back to doing

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you know in-person stuff i like your

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optimism

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all right well let's get into the book

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now you totally have to be

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all right let's jump into the book now

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what made you you know you got into ufo

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research

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made the jump to ufo investigation what

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was it that made you decide to write a

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book about your

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00:10:13,030 --> 00:10:10,560
ufo research yeah really two things of

289
00:10:14,949 --> 00:10:13,040
course just the personal side of it that

290
00:10:16,310 --> 00:10:14,959
hey i would like to be an author you

291
00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:16,320
know and i would like to

292
00:10:20,870 --> 00:10:19,360
record all of this information and

293
00:10:22,630 --> 00:10:20,880
knowledge that i had gathered over the

294
00:10:24,150 --> 00:10:22,640
years and kind of document it and leave

295
00:10:26,230 --> 00:10:24,160
a legacy for my

296
00:10:27,269 --> 00:10:26,240
granddaughters that kind of thing so

297
00:10:28,870 --> 00:10:27,279
selfishly that

298
00:10:31,110 --> 00:10:28,880
that definitely was part of my

299
00:10:34,550 --> 00:10:31,120
motivation but the other side

300
00:10:36,069 --> 00:10:34,560
and what really really what my focus is

301
00:10:37,190 --> 00:10:36,079
and it hasn't stopped with writing this

302
00:10:40,389 --> 00:10:37,200
book

303
00:10:43,430 --> 00:10:40,399
and that is is to educate people who are

304
00:10:45,670 --> 00:10:43,440
newly interested in this topic and why i

305
00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:45,680
think that's particularly

306
00:10:48,790 --> 00:10:47,760
important right now is a couple things

307
00:10:50,910 --> 00:10:48,800
one

308
00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:50,920
is we're living in a time of

309
00:10:56,069 --> 00:10:52,880
unprecedented release of

310
00:10:59,430 --> 00:10:56,079
information about ufos

311
00:11:01,030 --> 00:10:59,440
from the government a variety of

312
00:11:04,870 --> 00:11:01,040
agencies

313
00:11:08,069 --> 00:11:04,880
and and then the mainstream media

314
00:11:11,430 --> 00:11:08,079
is taking it seriously so um

315
00:11:12,630 --> 00:11:11,440
this has in effect been a signal to the

316
00:11:15,829 --> 00:11:12,640
general public

317
00:11:18,949 --> 00:11:15,839
that the taboo of

318
00:11:21,829 --> 00:11:18,959
demonstrating an interest in ufos has

319
00:11:23,030 --> 00:11:21,839
if not been eliminated at least reduced

320
00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:23,040
greatly

321
00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:26,800
so that you know a person can inquire

322
00:11:30,710 --> 00:11:28,880
and learn about it and not fear that

323
00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:30,720
ridicule and so on

324
00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:32,640
my thinking is is that as these

325
00:11:35,670 --> 00:11:34,560
revelations continue to come in that

326
00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:35,680
we've seen through

327
00:11:40,949 --> 00:11:38,640
ttsa and in the navy and the department

328
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:40,959
of defense and all these things

329
00:11:45,350 --> 00:11:44,560
um it's really a special time we we're

330
00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:45,360
just

331
00:11:49,750 --> 00:11:48,000
you know it's been 75 years of the lid

332
00:11:51,110 --> 00:11:49,760
being clamped down tight now it's it's

333
00:11:53,110 --> 00:11:51,120
come off

334
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:53,120
it's really wonderful it is it's so

335
00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:54,160
fascinating

336
00:11:58,150 --> 00:11:56,240
and i think it's going to draw a lot

337
00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:58,160
more people to the field and that being

338
00:12:01,590 --> 00:11:59,120
said

339
00:12:02,550 --> 00:12:01,600
i would hope that my book could help

340
00:12:04,629 --> 00:12:02,560
them

341
00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:04,639
not have the experience i had up front

342
00:12:07,509 --> 00:12:06,160
and the frustration with

343
00:12:09,190 --> 00:12:07,519
determining you know what's good

344
00:12:09,990 --> 00:12:09,200
information and bad information where

345
00:12:11,590 --> 00:12:10,000
are good sources

346
00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:11,600
motor bad sources and how do you tell

347
00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:13,440
the difference and all those sorts of

348
00:12:17,269 --> 00:12:15,279
things what are the big issues in

349
00:12:19,430 --> 00:12:17,279
in ufology what are the minor issues

350
00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:19,440
what are the politics of it and

351
00:12:23,110 --> 00:12:21,120
it kind of goes on and on but all of

352
00:12:25,590 --> 00:12:23,120
these are important

353
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:25,600
um you know to get a good understanding

354
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:27,680
of the topic and to begin to educate

355
00:12:31,110 --> 00:12:28,800
yourself so

356
00:12:32,629 --> 00:12:31,120
that that's really the point of my book

357
00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:32,639
is really is to help

358
00:12:36,310 --> 00:12:35,519
newly interested people wade through the

359
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:36,320
crap

360
00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:39,040
not fall down rabbit holes but get a

361
00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:39,440
good

362
00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:42,800
solid lock on on what ufology is all

363
00:12:46,389 --> 00:12:43,519
about

364
00:12:46,949 --> 00:12:46,399
uh so that they can you know be educated

365
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:46,959
with good

366
00:12:50,790 --> 00:12:49,680
high quality information versus you know

367
00:12:51,590 --> 00:12:50,800
having to wade through a lot of the

368
00:12:55,269 --> 00:12:51,600
nonsense

369
00:12:56,550 --> 00:12:55,279
first you include some classic ufo cases

370
00:12:58,710 --> 00:12:56,560
in the book

371
00:12:59,829 --> 00:12:58,720
do you think that having a familiarity

372
00:13:02,310 --> 00:12:59,839
with classic cases

373
00:13:04,470 --> 00:13:02,320
and ufo history in general is important

374
00:13:07,269 --> 00:13:04,480
when it comes to researching this topic

375
00:13:08,310 --> 00:13:07,279
absolutely essential uh and it's it's

376
00:13:10,790 --> 00:13:08,320
like any topic

377
00:13:12,790 --> 00:13:10,800
you know history matters and it can

378
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:12,800
guide and direct you in

379
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:14,880
in terms of the present and the future

380
00:13:19,269 --> 00:13:17,440
and so what these cases do for us

381
00:13:21,430 --> 00:13:19,279
i mean first of all we've that's all

382
00:13:21,990 --> 00:13:21,440
we've had for those 75 years right or

383
00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:22,000
these

384
00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:28,160
they all yield uh

385
00:13:34,629 --> 00:13:31,680
information about ufos and they they

386
00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:34,639
have different strengths

387
00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:37,360
in terms of each case so for example one

388
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:38,720
classic case might

389
00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:41,279
you know have really good photographic

390
00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:42,800
evidence you know especially like you

391
00:13:46,629 --> 00:13:44,800
know from the 50s and 60s where you

392
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:46,639
didn't have computers and you can

393
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:50,160
fake photos more easily that kind of

394
00:13:53,910 --> 00:13:50,480
thing

395
00:13:56,470 --> 00:13:53,920
or you know some cases have super strong

396
00:13:57,910 --> 00:13:56,480
um witness testimony and you know the

397
00:14:01,350 --> 00:13:57,920
credentials of the people

398
00:14:03,269 --> 00:14:01,360
you know involved really add add to it

399
00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:03,279
some of it is like mass sightings you

400
00:14:08,470 --> 00:14:05,519
know that's that's a rare thing and

401
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:08,480
and it's incredibly powerful and so what

402
00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:09,120
what

403
00:14:15,189 --> 00:14:12,160
the historical cases do is acquaint

404
00:14:17,430 --> 00:14:15,199
us with what is again good and relevant

405
00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:17,440
information versus what isn't

406
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:20,000
and it educates people about the

407
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:22,800
investigative process you know

408
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:24,720
it's it's a difficult thing when you're

409
00:14:28,550 --> 00:14:26,240
not there and you didn't see it or have

410
00:14:31,189 --> 00:14:28,560
that experience but you're charged with

411
00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:31,199
investigating it and you know and trying

412
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:32,320
to determine

413
00:14:35,509 --> 00:14:33,839
what it was if it was something

414
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:35,519
otherworldly or if it was something

415
00:14:39,030 --> 00:14:36,959
prosaic i mean

416
00:14:41,189 --> 00:14:39,040
and and the only way to get there is you

417
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:41,199
know eyewitness testimony and

418
00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:43,760
trace evidence and video evidence and in

419
00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:44,880
a process of

420
00:14:49,030 --> 00:14:47,360
uh elimination and just there's all

421
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:49,040
these moving pieces

422
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:51,360
all of the time to these cases and

423
00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:52,800
sometimes they're strong

424
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:54,480
and sometimes they're weak but you you

425
00:14:57,990 --> 00:14:56,000
know as an investigator you

426
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:58,000
you have to follow the evidence that you

427
00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:01,199
have and make a conclusion based on that

428
00:15:04,389 --> 00:15:03,920
so every case is unique and different

429
00:15:06,629 --> 00:15:04,399
and

430
00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:06,639
some are really fun because you get a

431
00:15:09,030 --> 00:15:07,600
lot of stuff and

432
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:09,040
others are kind of boring because you

433
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:11,120
just don't have much to go on some are

434
00:15:14,870 --> 00:15:13,920
super frustrating because you you know

435
00:15:18,550 --> 00:15:14,880
you

436
00:15:20,710 --> 00:15:18,560
what it wasn't

437
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:20,720
so what are you left with so i mean that

438
00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:22,320
that's the topsy-turvy world of

439
00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:23,760
investigating but

440
00:15:29,509 --> 00:15:27,120
again classic cases and our history is

441
00:15:30,629 --> 00:15:29,519
is a big part of it and it's absolutely

442
00:15:32,389 --> 00:15:30,639
essential so

443
00:15:34,150 --> 00:15:32,399
that's why i include that in the book to

444
00:15:37,110 --> 00:15:34,160
acquaint people with here's

445
00:15:38,230 --> 00:15:37,120
and and i selected cases that i thought

446
00:15:40,069 --> 00:15:38,240
were strong

447
00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:40,079
you know and i think they're generally

448
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:42,560
agreed upon as very strong cases in in

449
00:15:46,790 --> 00:15:44,880
the ufo community so

450
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:46,800
again a person just getting acquainted

451
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:48,480
with this they need to understand the

452
00:15:52,069 --> 00:15:50,399
history of it as well

453
00:15:54,550 --> 00:15:52,079
yeah really well south and i completely

454
00:15:56,710 --> 00:15:54,560
agree with you on that

455
00:15:57,910 --> 00:15:56,720
you point out various obstacles that

456
00:15:58,870 --> 00:15:57,920
researchers are almost certain to

457
00:16:02,069 --> 00:15:58,880
encounter like

458
00:16:05,829 --> 00:16:02,079
hoaxes misidentifications disinformation

459
00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:05,839
disagreements among researchers and more

460
00:16:09,509 --> 00:16:08,160
so was there an obstacle that was more

461
00:16:11,189 --> 00:16:09,519
prevalent than others

462
00:16:13,269 --> 00:16:11,199
uh to you personally when you were

463
00:16:15,749 --> 00:16:13,279
beginning your journey into ufo research

464
00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:15,759
yeah i think it was the ridicule factor

465
00:16:18,870 --> 00:16:16,560
because

466
00:16:19,910 --> 00:16:18,880
you know i had a a strong religious

467
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:19,920
background

468
00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:22,399
and i knew that that my interest in this

469
00:16:26,230 --> 00:16:23,920
would have been pooh-poohed

470
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:26,240
yeah um so that's one aspect of it of

471
00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:28,000
course i was concerned what my family

472
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:29,600
would think and my friends and

473
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:31,920
and then again my career i'm still still

474
00:16:36,629 --> 00:16:33,600
in the midst of my career

475
00:16:37,269 --> 00:16:36,639
and you know it's um it's a technical

476
00:16:39,829 --> 00:16:37,279
career

477
00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:39,839
and the by far the majority of people

478
00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:41,600
that i work with

479
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:44,480
uh are are highly educated you know

480
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:44,880
their

481
00:16:54,710 --> 00:16:52,000
thing so people who

482
00:16:55,269 --> 00:16:54,720
you know think critically and get it and

483
00:16:57,749 --> 00:16:55,279
so

484
00:16:59,590 --> 00:16:57,759
i you know i was concerned how it might

485
00:17:01,269 --> 00:16:59,600
reflect on me that you know i'm going to

486
00:17:04,390 --> 00:17:01,279
be a kook or something because i'm

487
00:17:05,990 --> 00:17:04,400
into ufos but you know gladly it

488
00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:06,000
none of that transpired the way i

489
00:17:09,350 --> 00:17:07,520
thought it would and

490
00:17:11,510 --> 00:17:09,360
and in fact i've got nothing but

491
00:17:13,590 --> 00:17:11,520
positive comments and support so

492
00:17:15,590 --> 00:17:13,600
for me that was the challenge and again

493
00:17:16,309 --> 00:17:15,600
with this book i'm hoping that people

494
00:17:18,870 --> 00:17:16,319
will

495
00:17:19,909 --> 00:17:18,880
you know understand that if you if you

496
00:17:23,029 --> 00:17:19,919
educate yourself

497
00:17:25,990 --> 00:17:23,039
and you have facts um when people

498
00:17:27,990 --> 00:17:26,000
you know do a pose pose it or ridicule

499
00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:28,000
in some way you can come back with

500
00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:30,320
you know good solid information because

501
00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:31,679
anybody

502
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:33,919
you know ridiculous not ridiculing you

503
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:34,960
because

504
00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:36,960
they know more facts than you they don't

505
00:17:39,669 --> 00:17:38,240
know anything they're totally ignorant

506
00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:39,679
they're just making fun of you you know

507
00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:40,880
they think that they have

508
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:42,400
a case to make fun of you but when you

509
00:17:47,909 --> 00:17:44,400
come back and defend yourself

510
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:47,919
um with fact and good information

511
00:17:52,230 --> 00:17:50,400
that that usually shuts that kind of

512
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:52,240
stuff down right away so

513
00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:54,400
to me it's all about education and

514
00:17:56,710 --> 00:17:55,360
understanding

515
00:17:58,710 --> 00:17:56,720
and that way you can protect yourself

516
00:18:00,789 --> 00:17:58,720
and move forward that really

517
00:18:02,150 --> 00:18:00,799
goes right into the book's final chapter

518
00:18:03,909 --> 00:18:02,160
the book's final chapter is called

519
00:18:05,990 --> 00:18:03,919
follow the evidence

520
00:18:07,029 --> 00:18:06,000
and i mean that would seem like a

521
00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:07,039
no-brainer

522
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:09,600
but tell me why you thought it was and

523
00:18:12,789 --> 00:18:10,160
is

524
00:18:14,310 --> 00:18:12,799
important to remind ufo researchers to

525
00:18:16,870 --> 00:18:14,320
follow the evidence

526
00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:16,880
yeah i think it's it's just such an

527
00:18:20,789 --> 00:18:18,240
important thing

528
00:18:21,270 --> 00:18:20,799
the fact is there's more information out

529
00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:21,280
there than

530
00:18:28,310 --> 00:18:24,640
you could you know amass or digest

531
00:18:30,789 --> 00:18:28,320
in a lifetime and a lot of it is

532
00:18:32,549 --> 00:18:30,799
not good information but there is good

533
00:18:36,230 --> 00:18:32,559
information there's mountains

534
00:18:37,909 --> 00:18:36,240
mountains of good evidence to support

535
00:18:40,950 --> 00:18:37,919
the view that ufos

536
00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:40,960
are real and and that's that there's

537
00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:42,080
there's no question about

538
00:18:45,909 --> 00:18:44,559
it but yeah the problem is is people

539
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:45,919
develop their own

540
00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:48,320
um thinking about what this is and why

541
00:18:51,909 --> 00:18:48,960
they're here

542
00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:51,919
and all of those things which is natural

543
00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:52,400
and i

544
00:18:55,990 --> 00:18:54,400
understand that but that's putting the

545
00:18:58,710 --> 00:18:56,000
cart before the horse

546
00:18:59,350 --> 00:18:58,720
you know i i talk about the the five w's

547
00:19:02,070 --> 00:18:59,360
you know

548
00:19:04,150 --> 00:19:02,080
what where and when which to me that's

549
00:19:06,549 --> 00:19:04,160
what we need to focus on because that

550
00:19:08,789 --> 00:19:06,559
yields actionable data we can measure

551
00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:08,799
that you know what date what

552
00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:11,120
time what geographic location what

553
00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:12,640
happened blah blah blah

554
00:19:18,549 --> 00:19:16,400
you can aggregate that you can you know

555
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:18,559
use that to study with you can draw

556
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:19,919
conclusions from it

557
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:22,080
and i think those are the things that

558
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:23,039
you can treat

559
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:26,720
um in a scientific way you know

560
00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:28,960
you can apply the scientific method to

561
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:29,840
the what where and

562
00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:32,960
when now the who and the y which is

563
00:19:36,070 --> 00:19:35,039
you know ultimately where we want to go

564
00:19:38,789 --> 00:19:36,080
of course

565
00:19:40,630 --> 00:19:38,799
you know it's too soon for that um but i

566
00:19:43,110 --> 00:19:40,640
i think if we really do get a handle on

567
00:19:45,029 --> 00:19:43,120
what where when and how type stuff

568
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:45,039
the the who and the why will either

569
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:46,960
become self-evident

570
00:19:52,870 --> 00:19:50,000
or we can make some really strong

571
00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:52,880
theories that are supportable or maybe

572
00:19:56,150 --> 00:19:54,000
if there isn't

573
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:56,160
some others that at that point they'll

574
00:20:00,789 --> 00:19:58,240
make themselves known to us so

575
00:20:01,510 --> 00:20:00,799
um so i think that's the danger is that

576
00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:01,520
we

577
00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:04,640
some people allow their belief

578
00:20:08,789 --> 00:20:07,840
um and what or who or why this is

579
00:20:11,830 --> 00:20:08,799
happening to

580
00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:11,840
to cloud the the use of

581
00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:13,840
evidence which is the what where in the

582
00:20:17,510 --> 00:20:15,440
wind side so

583
00:20:18,870 --> 00:20:17,520
i i think that's always where the slope

584
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:18,880
gets slippery

585
00:20:24,310 --> 00:20:22,000
uh for researchers and you know and it

586
00:20:25,909 --> 00:20:24,320
it's okay it's okay to speculate and

587
00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:25,919
kind of have fun with the idea but you

588
00:20:29,990 --> 00:20:27,840
know we gotta act responsibly and

589
00:20:31,510 --> 00:20:30,000
we gotta make sure if we're if we're

590
00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:31,520
spouting stuff off

591
00:20:35,669 --> 00:20:33,520
that we're what we're spouting off is

592
00:20:38,310 --> 00:20:35,679
you know evidence and fact

593
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:38,320
and proof um and then anything else

594
00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:39,120
going to make

595
00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:42,480
really clear that that is our opinion

596
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:46,080
or our theory and one of many

597
00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:47,440
well shane thanks a bunch for sharing

598
00:20:51,029 --> 00:20:49,520
this insight into your book and i hope

599
00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:51,039
people who are interested in ufo

600
00:20:53,990 --> 00:20:52,480
research check it out

601
00:20:55,590 --> 00:20:54,000
shane's book unidentified aerial

602
00:20:56,950 --> 00:20:55,600
phenomena a beginner's guide to

603
00:21:00,549 --> 00:20:56,960
researching ufos

604
00:21:01,990 --> 00:21:00,559
is available now on amazon

605
00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:02,000
well citizens that's gonna do it for

606
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:03,760
this episode you can find more episodes

607
00:21:06,470 --> 00:21:05,520
of unknown on all the major podcast

608
00:21:07,990 --> 00:21:06,480
platforms

609
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:08,000
and you can always find this show and

610
00:21:11,510 --> 00:21:10,080
our other shows at rogueplanet.tv

611
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:11,520
because unknown is a rogue planet

612
00:21:14,470 --> 00:21:12,240
production

613
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:14,480
rogueplanet.tv is your home for all the

614
00:21:17,830 --> 00:21:16,320
strange feel free to reach out to us if

615
00:21:19,669 --> 00:21:17,840
you've got a story you want to share

616
00:21:21,270 --> 00:21:19,679
if there's a story or topic you'd like

617
00:21:21,909 --> 00:21:21,280
us to cover on this show or anything

618
00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:21,919
else

619
00:21:25,710 --> 00:21:23,760
you can find us on social media or

620
00:21:28,070 --> 00:21:25,720
simply email us at contact

621
00:21:29,110 --> 00:21:28,080
rogueplanet.tv thanks again for hanging

622
00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:29,120
out with us today

623
00:21:32,630 --> 00:21:31,840
i'm jason mcclellan i'm shane hurd do us

624
00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:32,640
a favor friends

625
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:34,080
always treat the ufo subject with the

626
00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:35,840
cautious and responsible skepticism it

627
00:21:38,789 --> 00:21:36,720
deserves

628
00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:38,799
question everything have the courage to

629
00:21:42,470 --> 00:21:40,480
form your own opinions

630
00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:42,480
keep truth as the focus of your quest

631
00:21:44,789 --> 00:21:44,080
even if the truth conflicts with your